#3: The (Other) Musical Fruit
Photo by Rick Liston
Episode Description
In ‘The (Other) Musical Fruit’, we go in search of music amongst the hills of the Yarra Valley to speak with a winemaker about the links between terroir and timbre. We look at how the sound around us can remix our sense of taste.
In this episode
Guests: Steve Flamsteed and Jo Burzynska
Intro Theme: First Kiss Goodnight - “Story One”
Music Credits: Podington Bear - “Love Song #1”, Podington Bear - “Massive Attack”, Annaliese Redlich - “She’s Lost Control”, Davey Lane - “Photosynthetic”, Jo Burzynska - “Crown Range”, Podington Bear - “Euphoria and Ticklefest”, Podington Bear - “Releasing The Sculpture”, The Dubwegians - “Creator Dub”, Podington Bear - “dadala - 9 - The End Of The World”
All Ears is produced and presented by Annaliese Redlich, with mentorship and editorial support from Beth Atkinson-Quinton and the Broadwave team.
Get in touch
We want to hear from our listeners. Stay in touch across Twitter, Instagram and Facebook at @hearallears and @broadwavepods.
Annaliese Redlich [00:00:00] So if Guns N' Roses were a wine...
Steve Flamsteed [00:00:04] They'd have to be kind of like a big, robust shiraz, I reckon, from southern part of Australia somewhere that was like, you know, "Rrrr, here I am". Full of grunt. Yeah. Yeah. Sweaty smells, and sticky carpet and all that stuff. Yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:00:34] This episode of All Ears we escape the sweaty smells and sticky carpet to look for music amongst the hills and great vines of one of the world's top winemaking regions, the Yarra Valley. It's situated just outside of Melbourne, Australia, the hometown of this podcast. And you may or may not be aware that Melbourne is quite a musical powerhouse. It has a thriving scene of bands and artists, which is part of an ecosystem of live music venues, independent radio stations, publications and record stores, and most importantly, music-hungry audiences. This is a world I spend pretty much all of my time in. Now, aside from the fact that most of this music happens in pubs and clubs where alcohol is served, the links between the two run way deeper than that. And this is what today's episode is all about. More so, the connection between our sense of taste and hearing.
Steve Flamsteed [00:01:30] Each little block, you know, this is, there's one block here, there's a block there, block there, block there. They all have their own little microclimates because they are, you know, shaded by a bunch trees. The soil type might change. There's different rhythms going right through this entire block, even though it's one farm. Um, and, you know I've been making mine up this vineyard 15, 16 years now and I guess in the last four or five years, I'm starting to really get my head around it. It just takes, it takes a long time to get to know a vineyard and its little idiosyncrasies, and um, and we make single vineyard wines. And even in that single vineyard, there's certain parcels that are more exciting.
Annaliese Redlich [00:02:11] Right now, we're in a truck with Steve Flammsteed. And. He. Knows. His. Wine. In fact, he's one of the best in the business. Steve was the 2016 'Gourmet Traveler Winemaker of the Year' and in 2019, he was awarded the status of 'Legend of the Vine', which is a big deal. He's the chief winemaker for Giant Steps. And we're checking out their vineyards in one of Australia's iconic winemaking regions, the Yarra Valley, in eastern Victoria. Steve has played a strong role in the quiet revolution of Victorian wines, pushing for more transparent farming and limited intervention winemaking. He's a salt-of-the-earth guy and a diehard music fan and draws some interesting parallels between the ways that environmental factors push human creativity and the flavor expressions of grapes.
Steve Flamsteed [00:02:59] I grew up in Brissie in the 80s and um, that was all the pig-city, Jon Bjelke-Peterson era. So...
Annaliese Redlich [00:03:05] The Saints.
Steve Flamsteed [00:03:06] The Saints, yeah. And it it took that kind of um, that repression in some ways to produce a really beautiful music, didn't it? Like a really a reactive music to that period. Um, and I think without that, without that situation, the music wouldn't have anywhere near as exciting. And I think when you put grape vines into it, into a difficult site, difficult meaning not much nutrient in the soil, you have got to really go looking for, um, for their water and their nutrients. They produce a certain style of, um, they grow a certain style of grape, which produces a certain style of wine. And we've found the Chardonnay and Pinot of this vineyard, if we compare that to our other couple of sites that are up higher in the hill in deeper, more fertile soils, it's massive, massively different expression of fruit.
Annaliese Redlich [00:03:50] So the Chardonnay and Pinot and the punk, punk variety of this vinyard?
Steve Flamsteed [00:03:52] Yeah, they're the reactive varieties. Yes. Yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:03:56] Yeah. I love it. I always knew I loved Chardonnay for a reason.
Steve Flamsteed [00:03:59] And if you push them a little bit, you know, you just treat them a little, repress them a tiny bit, they, they kind of have this corresponding reaction back then. About I'm gonna, you know I've got to sort of strike back in some ways. It's really interesting watching them develop and, and maintaining that little bit of mild stress is a really important part of grape growing and winemaking. Yeah, this sort of slightly controlled repression. Yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:04:23] We know that music is a response to our surroundings, be it in an individual or collective sense. But if places and times shape our expression of music, art and culture, why are we surprised to see these expressions in the natural world? How are regions, climates and soils shaping the flavor of produce? These synergies are all around us, the products of which are the music and art we make, the food we eat or the wine we drink. And it's not just a human trait. It's an inherent part of being alive.
Steve Flamsteed [00:04:58] So we're just pulling into the front of the Sexton Vineyard. This is about 80 acres, about 35 hectares, and the lower part is mainly Chardonnay becasuse Chardonnay likes to be on the lower soils and just a bit more clay content. The midsection is mainly Pinot because Pinot likes to be just at the base of the hill and little bit of exposure to the sun but in more, I guess, you know, slightly better drained points, and up the top of the hill we've got really where it's poked out and facing direct sun we've got Cabernet and a bit of Shahriz as well.
Annaliese Redlich [00:05:31] And what would you say? I'm not very good at judging distances, but that's not a very far distance, you know...
Steve Flamsteed [00:05:34] Nah, that's about 500 meters.
Annaliese Redlich [00:05:37] So within the space of 500 meters, you have such different effects on the plants.
Steve Flamsteed [00:05:42] Absolutely. And each one...
Annaliese Redlich [00:05:43] So 'Giant Steps' is regarded as one of the top 100 wineries in the world, consistently winning awards for their Pinot and Chardonnay. The guy who owns it, his name is Phil Sexton, he was a beer guy from Western Australia who started a really popular brewery called 'Little Creatures'. He had a vineyard in the West, Margaret River, to be precise, called 'Devil's Lair' but he wanted to head east for the cooler climate, which is better for Pinot and Chardonnay vines. Anyway, Steve was a former chef turned winemaker, he meets Phil, they hit it off, and many trophies later, here we are. If you're a jazz fan, the name 'Giant Steps' might be familiar to you, and if not...
Steve Flamsteed [00:06:21] When John Coltrane left Miles, I guess that was his seminal album, and um, yeah, I think Phil probably leaving Margaret River and leaving brewing to get in winemaking was a bit of a giant step and a bit of a leap for him as well. He's got like thousands and thousands of CDs and albums. Like, he's just he's a manic collector of music in general, but particularly jazz. Yeah. So, you know, we have a few kind of different allusions to that, to the giant steps name. This vineyard's got kind of big steps in it. So I kind of like that take as well.
Steve Flamsteed [00:06:51] So we're just at the top of the hill now. Um, you can jump out if you like. I'm not sure how sensible your shoes are, are they alright?
Annaliese Redlich [00:06:57] Yeah, yeah. They're pretty sensible.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:03] Yeah cool.
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:03] We're standing on the top of a beautiful, lush green hill. It's foggy. Little bit of sun coming through the clouds.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:11] That's the Great Dividing Range, by the way, that goes all the way to Queensland. This mountain range here keeps going north. That's north that way.
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:18] The vines are completely bare because we are midwinter.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:20] Midwinter, yep.
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:21] They are sleeping there, they are storing up their goodness for next vintage.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:25] The other thing is back over that, range...
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:26] The vineyard is changing with the climate shift. Areas that were once cool are now a lot warmer. And the plan is to replace the cold loving vines in these spots with heartier warm varieties like Grenache and Shiraz and find some new land further up the hill for cool climate vines like Pinot and Chardonnay. Apparently, the flavor gets freakier as you head up the hill.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:48] This is getting a bit safe (laughs).
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:49] It's the jazz fusion.
Steve Flamsteed [00:07:51] It's the jazz fusion up there, yeah. We've gotta start pushing a bit further.
Annaliese Redlich [00:07:54] In 2018, 'Giant Steps' released a wine that was a tribute to the iconic English band Joy Division. Along with other vital acts out of England and the USA in the late 70s, Joy Division carved out a unique expression of post-punk that lay the framework for the music that followed. Their groundbreaking 1979 album 'Unknown Pleasures' was their first and only release before singer Ian Curtis tragically took his own life in 1980. And, as a young student at Birmingham University, Phil Sexton, the owner of 'Giant Steps', witnessed Ian Curtis and Joy Division's last ever show. This clearly made an impact. 'Known Pleasures', according to Phil, is a beautiful and brooding wine in personal tribute to the music important to us, and in particular, Ian Curtis and Joy Division.
Steve Flamsteed [00:08:43] It's the wine that was made entirely with no additions, just natural yeast and doing its own thing. And we just kind of like that comparison to a band like Joy Division who, you know, were such a, such a, beautiful band and so kind of tragic and and so just completely unlike anything that was around them at the time. And this wine was a bit wacky... (fades out)
Annaliese Redlich [00:08:59] And the music references are abound in this world. There's even a band made up of winemakers and viticulturists in this area called 'The Yeastie Boys', a reference to guess which band. And Steve himself started a band with some other wine crew called 'Preparation H'. That name not to do with winemaking.
Annaliese Redlich [00:09:19] Is preparation H referring to...?
Steve Flamsteed [00:09:20] To the hemorrhoid cream.
Annaliese Redlich [00:09:22] (laughs).
Steve Flamsteed [00:09:22] Yeah, and that's pretty much how we sounded, yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:09:24] And 'The Yeastie Boys' interesting name for... Is yeast used in, um, winemaking?
Steve Flamsteed [00:09:29] Yeah, well, yeast is everywhere.
Annaliese Redlich [00:09:30] Of course.
Steve Flamsteed [00:09:31] Yeast is right for this vineyard and um, you know, people refer to wild yeast. And while yeast means it's a spontaneous fermentation. If you grow grapes really nicely and without spraying too much crap on them, you get a healthy population of really good yeast come in with the fruit. When you press Chardonnay and just let it ferment as juice, it will begin fermenting by itself with its own wild yeast.
Steve Flamsteed [00:09:56] Everything that we do in the winery and the vineyard is always associated with music. There's always music going on and I think in the winery particularly, 'cause our year's so su... It's such a cycle, that we play music that seems to be matched to a degree with the activities that are going on. So that when we're in the middle of, like, crazy vintage time, where ya, you know, there's eight people just working flat out to try and get through the day, the tempo of the music goes up and we tend to play usually sort of punk or post punk staff or something pretty grungy with plenty of energy to keep everyone flying. But this time of year, when we're just look topping barrels and everything's pretty peaceful, the music tends to sort of change back to much more melodic stuff. So um, you know, a bit more ambient, um, we play a bit of Mogwai and stuff like that. That just seems to sit in the mood of the seller much better.
Annaliese Redlich [00:10:55] In 1976, Canadian composer and Moog pioneer Mort Garson released a cult album called 'Mother Earth's Plantasia'. This record contained ambient pieces of music that supposedly help different plants to grow. I'm not sure how seriously this was taken at the time aside from it just being a fascinating record, but since I first heard it, this has been on my mind and it's part of what started me on the track for this story. There's been research into the ways that different frequencies affect plants, but does anyone actually use these techniques in real life?
Steve Flamsteed [00:11:32] I don't, but I know plenty people who do, funnily enough, who play music to their wine that they think the rhythms are gonna help with, I guess, the maturation process of the wine. And I, I feel that much more that it's an effect on the humans 'cause I think we're much more, you know, we soak those sounds up and are effected by them so much more directly than wine is, but, there's a whole lot of biodynamic and organic things, too, that we follow now, and we don't necessarily have to worry about the science of it so much as is that we know that it works. It's a lot of, it's anecdotal. And I love the anecdotal stuff in wine making. Like I love the bits of mystery that when people say to you, why do you do it like that? And we go, well, we just know that it works. Some of the techniques we do in the winery, a little bit sort of bizarre. And my winemaking mates who want to get technical about it, they just go that's, you know, give me the, give me the reasons behind that. And I go, well I actually haven't got any reasons for it, it just works, you know.
Steve Flamsteed [00:12:24] So people who play music to their wines in the cellar and play classical music or slow jazz or whatever during the winter process, like we don't do it, but I totally, you know, I wouldn't reject that as a really cool concept. The more mystery in it, in some ways I kind of think the better. Like in the Yarra Valley, I've got four or five friends who make beautiful wine and, um, and we swap quite a lot, and we have reasonably similar philosophies on how to grow grapes and make wine. Our vineyards aren't very far from each other but our wines entirely different, and it's a bunch of all these little tiny bits and pieces that we do differently to each other that end up with a different product in the bottle. You know, yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:13:04] When you think about it, this isn't any different to scene in music. Take, for example, New York hip hop. In the early 80s, the climate produced a certain sound and edge that was unique to that area at that time, which through the lens of each artist was a different expression whilst retaining the underpinning characteristics of hip hop. Think about the difference between Run DMC, Roxanne Shante, Public Enemy and The Beastie Boys.
Steve Flamsteed [00:13:31] It's like this infinite box isn't it? That creation just keeps, people keep creating things. You can say the same thing about wine I reckon, that you know, Chardonnay is Chardonnay and Pinot is Pinot, but every single year we make different wines and they're more and more exciting, and the wines that my mates make, I find more and more exciting and more interesting. And, you know, it's always the most exciting time of the year is the new release time and it's usually sort of spring, like everyone just end of winter/spring, everyone brings out their new release wines, and it's, it's great 'cause we all start swapping boxes of wine and checking each other's stuff out and comparing and yeah.
Steve Flamsteed [00:14:09] Wine like cooking is very much about sharing, like there's no, there's no joy or fun in having a really beautiful wine just to yourself. And, I kind of feel the same of that music in some ways that, like, it's pretty rare that you sit down, listen to an amazing piece of music and, you know, you definitely listen to music by yourself but one of the really cool things about music is being able to share a great tune with somebody else. It's particular in this modern age where you can share music so easily, um, come across something that's a bit of a hidden gem, you know, and go! And then make sure somebody else who, you know, has got similar taste gets to hear that as well. And, you know, I've always found that when I've had a really lovely wine that it's always been so much better because I've been sharing it with two or three people who can't get it and understand it.
Annaliese Redlich [00:14:55] If there is anything to take away from this series, whether you've listened to each episode or just this one, it's that: Music. Makes. Life. Better. It soothes or energizes or manages to do whatever we need it to do at the time, when we're alone or with other people. So how about in the vineyard?
Steve Flamsteed [00:15:14] I think the most memorable wine and music moments would have to be moments during vintage. You know, when we were kind of in that in that real, um, when everything kind of falls together and there's this real synergy working between the crew, and I think there's a moment this year, particularly every single year happens at some point but everyone was just working so beautifully and we had really lovely fruit and was a great vintage, and um, we had to get cleaned up and get out because it was just the day it was time to drag on a bit. And um, so I went, I just basically went and got one of the tanks of the Rose had just gone dry. So it's Pinot Noir Rosé. Really fragrant, really pretty. Super cold because we've been chilling the ferment to stop it. And um, we all poured a glass of that and we put on um, something really tacky, like 'Sweet Child O' Mine'. Just cranked it up and went okay we've got like 20 minutes, and were going to be out of here. And just that little bit of, you know, hit of this really beautiful fresh Rosé and this cranked up tacky rock and roll song. Um and then we just powered through and got out of the place. So, yeah.
Annaliese Redlich [00:16:15] Steve is someone whose palette is so highly developed it's almost like a superpower. Of course, given his profession, he's able to sense and articulate things that I absolutely can't. And as we've heard, music is ever present in his mind, too. We head back to the giant step cellar door and barrel store, and I'm curious for his perspective on other ways wine and music may be linked for us humans. Can our music taste be predicted by our wine preferences?
Steve Flamsteed [00:16:44] Yeah. Well, I think um, someone with such look...You're a good example. Someone who I know has got a really um, interesting kind of like, music and cultural base is gonna like Pinot and Chardonnay because you're going to get the nuance and the differences and the kind of little idiosyncrasies of that, of those varieties.
Annaliese Redlich [00:17:02] Full disclosure, I adore Chardonnay, but I have to say that I am currently working on my ah, Pinot palette.
Steve Flamsteed [00:17:09] And when someone comes in and says that they like, you know, AC/DC and they like the Stones, I'm going to straight away pour a Shiraz and I know they're going to like that as well. You know, because it's gonna be a simpler story, a simpler message, a bit more blunt. Still good. But, you know, like, um, we're not going to have the same complexities that we're gonna have when we talk about um, Gram Parsons and when we talk about Pinot and Nina Simone, and we talk about Chardonnay and that sort of thing. So, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I could, someone could walk in a cellar door and I could watch them taste wine and see what they like and I can tell you what music they like, for sure. That would be a real interesting challenge and I reckon I can get eight out of 10.
Annaliese Redlich [00:17:49] Remember Guns N' Roses being a Shiraz? Well, what other artists can be summed up in a great variety?
Steve Flamsteed [00:17:55] I'm a, I'm a big closet Prince fan. And what I love most about him is he is, he was, um, so fucking creative, and I think it went off in so many different kind of genres but there was always this Prince thread through it. Talking Heads are the same, I reckon. I see Pinot Noir as a grape variety and wine style like that. Depending on where it's grown and who makes it, it can really be taken off into a certain direction. Um, but it's always Pinot Noir. And so it's always going to be ethereal and fragrant and pretty and esoteric and all that or the wine bullshit you hear. It all, Pinot is all of those things. So, yeah, Prince is always kind of experimental. He's always exciting. He's always kind of cool, you know, regardless of what he got, he's dripping in coolness. And um, you know, I just think, you know, any one of my friends or anyone I know is a wine maker who makes Pinot, I'm always super keen to try it and swap 'cause like even if it's not going to be necessarily a great wine, it's gonna be a really exciting wine. Um, 'cause it's gonna be a reflection of them and the vintage and the site. You know, more than any other variety. Something delicate and fine and elegant and mineral-y like Chardonnay, you know, we're talking about a bit about Nina Simone, and I think, you know, her stuff is just so elegant. It's just so beautiful and so delicious and and also kind of edgy in that in her special way. So, you know, I'd associate someone like her with with a variety like Chardonnay. Yeah. Particularly cool climate Chardonnay that, that's so mineral-y and and exciting, but elegant.
Annaliese Redlich [00:19:26] Now, is this just one person's opinion or is there an actual physiological-sensory link between our taste buds and our ears? Well, I just so happened to find an expert in this particular field, meet Jo Burzynska.
Jo Burzynska [00:19:43] So if you want to take the wine and um, smell the wine, you might want to swirl it to get some of the aromas up because the um, it works with the aromas as well as the flavors. So, if you want to swirl the wine, sniff the wine and sip the wine as the piece um, continues and just see how the flavors and the sounds work together. Don't think too much about it. Just immerse yourself in the sensory experience.
Annaliese Redlich [00:20:12] Joe is a sound artist and wine writer. Her background in both spans several decades and in recent years, she's brought them together in her academic research in sound art practice, looking at cross modal correspondences. She even helped to establish the world's first wine and sound bar in Christchurch, New Zealand, called 'The Auricle'. She focuses on the way our palate is affected by sound. Specifically when tasting wine, which is what we are doing right now.
Annaliese Redlich [00:20:40] I certainly feel like I'm in a place and time sonically and taste-wise that's unified.
Jo Burzynska [00:20:48] Yeah, so that was the idea to bring the kind of sound and taste experience together and maybe take you to a different place with those, those two things.
Annaliese Redlich [00:20:57] Yeah, they're very synergistic with the two.
Annaliese Redlich [00:21:01] We're listening to a wine and sound work that she created as part of her doctoral research called 'Crown Range'. And we're tasting a Pinot Noir from New Zealand's Central Otago region.
Jo Burzynska [00:21:13] The birds which are singing in the soundscape there, the New Zealand birds, New Zealand Central Otago Pinot Noir. I, I like to link a lot of my sound works to the place where, where the wine came from.
Annaliese Redlich [00:21:25] Joe comes from a musical family and has always played and engaged with music at the same time as being involved in many areas of the wine industry. But while she had a strong relationship with both separately, she had a persistent feeling that there was some kind of link between the two. It was then she read a study by music psychologist Adrian North, who did an experiment with wine in different genres of music. It suggested that what people listen to when they drink different wines was affecting their taste. And this was a eureka moment for her.
Jo Burzynska [00:21:56] The fact that it could impact on the perceptual experience of taste of wine was really exciting.
Annaliese Redlich [00:22:03] She conducted some experiments on herself and a group of friends, and then more research came out in this new area of study from Oxford University's Crossmodal Lab confirming that, yes, what you listen to when you're tasting things has an effect on the way they taste. Particularly when it comes to something complex like wine.
Jo Burzynska [00:22:23] Um, a lot of people think that ah, wine, or kind of taste experience can't convey ideas, but I think working perceptually with a wine and kind of, kind of changing the way people taste things, you can kind of play with these kind of boundaries and thresholds in an interesting way. I just think that the potential of wine to interact with sound is um, there's so much that can happen, and I think it's a really exciting combination.
Annaliese Redlich [00:22:54] So what are some things we need to consider if we want to explore this exciting combination of sound and taste? Is it a case of the more bombastic, the better? Or, is less more in the world of wine and music matching?
Jo Burzynska [00:23:07] It's kind of difficult to say pair of wine with a curry because of the spices and things like that. But ambient music, when things are kind of more turned down, they tend to go very well with wines. So my kind of go to pieces: Brian Eno's 'Discreet Music', which I find works really well for Pinot Noir. I'd like to think my tracks as well work well for Pinot Noir, but it's um, there's something about the kind of smoothness of the tone and the kind of minimalism of that work that goes really well with Pinot, but it can also be used to tone down a really tannic red. You can like smooth out a really big bolshy wine with that piece of music as well. It works it's, kind of, smooth wonders across a lot of wines.
Annaliese Redlich [00:23:49] As creatures of evolution our bodies are very well designed and adapted to keep us alive. And we rely on our sensory perceptions to accomplish this very mission. The interplay between our sense of vision and sound has long been understood and explored, but it turns out that similar connections have now been documented between pretty much every pair of our senses. Those senses being: light or vision, sound-temperature, taste-pressure and smell. But the links between taste and sound are only really just beginning to be explored.
Jo Burzynska [00:24:24] No one knows exactly what is going on yet. It looks like it's this phenomenon called crossmodal correspondences: when perception in one modality is associated with and can even influence perception in another. And why that happens could be lots of different reasons. There could be because of the way our brains are wired. So, it could be a neurological thing, it can be emotional. It can be, um, similarities in perceptual associations.
Jo Burzynska [00:24:57] I became increasingly aware that bass seemed to be having quite a big effect on, um, my perception of the body of the wine and body is, um, it's a mouth-feel character. It could change, a kind of, light-bodied Pinot Noir into something that felt a lot more full-bodied. And I thought it was quite kind of an extreme effect. And we had a study conducted partially in the UK, Oxford, and partly here at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, which tested to see whether the things which I had, kind of, seen anecdotally, would happen in a significant way. And with the Pinot Noir, it did. Sound seems to affect taste more than taste will affect sound, but then it effects the whole experience that you have. It's quite interesting, just unraveling what is, what is going on. And it seems to be very complex. It's a puzzle, but it's one that you can solve with your senses, which is what I'm doing with my research.
Annaliese Redlich [00:25:59] We are bombarded by stimulus: marketing, entertainment, even communication with those closest to us is designed to tap into our brains and take up space. The world is overwhelming. And paradoxically, while we seem to understand this, we do little to safeguard ourselves. But what's the fallout? Are we becoming numb? Are we did anything our senses by gaining efficiency and convenience? What are we losing?
Jo Burzynska [00:26:25] I think in daily life, I think we're all guilty of not paying enough attention to our sensory experiences. They're happening all the time. We live in a multi-sensory world, but very often we don't actually attend to what's going on. So, if you actually pay attention to the taste of the wine in your mouth and the sound that you're listening to, then you will notice things. It's basically, oh, sound environment is remixing your wine. So if you're in a very noisy environment, that can actually suppress a lot of the characters as well.
Annaliese Redlich [00:27:02] How many times have you been in a bar or restaurant with very echoey hard surfaces? And you're shouting across the table just to be remotely heard? This happens to me all the time, but it's never occurred to me that it may be having a bigger impact than straining my voice and ears. It might be remixing the very way that we taste. So keep that in mind the next time you're drinking a glass of wine or tasting something that doesn't taste quite right. Maybe it's all the wine itself, maybe it's the sound all around you.
Jo Burzynska [00:27:33] I certainly kind of had perceived this myself, and there has been some research, um, which has tried to reproduce, say, the sounds of an aircraft cabin. A lot of white noise is very noisy environments, and obviously people are eating and drinking, and it seems that white noise will suppress certain characters. Umami, that savory character, that seem to be the one taste that didn't get suppressed in a noisy environment, which led people to suggest that maybe that's why people order a lot more tomato juice on air flights, because that's very savory flavor and that, that is more conducive to that noisy environment.
Annaliese Redlich [00:28:15] Give it a try next time you're on a flight if you have some of those noise canceling headphones. Switch them on and off, tasting different things. Are they more or less savory or sweet? What do you notice? There are all sorts of other easy ways you can experiment yourself.
Jo Burzynska [00:28:31] If you are at home and you want to kind of see how things actually work. You can sit down with maybe a couple of different wines and different types of music and can try the same wine with different types of music and then try a different wine with the same piece of music and just see just tune in to your perceptions and see see what changes you notice. All you need is your senses, which is the exciting thing. It's just about attention, really.
Annaliese Redlich [00:29:00] But let's get specific. What are some other optimal pairings, according to Jo? What are some things that we should consider?
Jo Burzynska [00:29:07] Well, with dub, you've got a lot of bass. So, it's best to pick a wine that actually is a wine that is full bodied and the whole thing is about it being a big, full bodied wine. I would say, like, go for a kind of a Primitivo, kind of an Italian, that's a big full bodied wine. Kind of, you might want, um, a big Australian Shiraz, something that is going to really kind of be enhanced by having its kind of bass and and body turn turned up.
Jo Burzynska [00:29:42] Champagne and prosecco, again, this isn't the more kind of high acid wines. Interestingly, I have actually created a piece for sparkling wine in which I recorded the effervescence of wine and also wine fermenting so it's lots of high crackling noises, which is a bit like this, that the sensation that you get in the mouth, which seems to enhance people's perception of the bubbles in the mouth as well. Kind of think about the affective elements as well as the wine. Like champagnes, you can get more serious and complex characters. Prosecco, maybe more kind of simple. So, yeah, something fresh, bubbly, um. Yeah, again, some kind of high, I think female voice if we're talking about vocal music, you don't want to kind of Scott Walker with a Prosecco, that would be like the opposite.
Annaliese Redlich [00:30:31] What would Scott Walker be good for?
Jo Burzynska [00:30:33] Well, I think Scott Walker is more of a Cabernet. He's more, kind of, Cabernet voice (laughs) in tone and mood as well. That kind of, more kind of, darker side. I mean, I think, it's interesting. There's also a winemaker who's done some, quite a lot of personal research in the states, Clark Smith, and he's proposed matching wines to moods. You kind of think Scott Walker, a dark song, a low pitched voice, you're not thinking, you're not thinking Prosecco. You're thinking a structured wine with tannins, body, probably a bit of acidity as well. Not something too smooth and cuddly. Yeah, a bit of edge (laughs).
Jo Burzynska [00:31:13] You can kind of pick a lot of different pieces potentially to go with the same wine that kind of draw out different characters. And there's some genres which are difficult because people do kind of throw difficult pieces of music at me and say, now what wine will go with this? And I had a job with a visit, visiting sound academic to the University a few months ago, and he picked out a piece of free jazz.
Jo Burzynska [00:31:39] It was like kind of putting it kind of really spicy curry and saying, what wine with it? And it was just, I had to wave my white flag and it was like, yeah, that's, that was really difficult. I'm not sure. I'm not really not sure if there was a one wine free, maybe lots of different ones at different points or maybe just have a kind of glass of water that was um, it was such a busy changing piece of music that I found it, that was it... that's the tough one.
Annaliese Redlich [00:32:05] So, let's you and I try an experiment! It will work best if you're at home or somewhere you can control your environment. Let's see what we notice when we play a piece of music and drink some wine. I guess if you don't drink wine, grab something else, but try and pick something with a level of complexity. Otherwise, if he can, for this, get some Shiraz. More particularly, a nice aromatic and supple one would suit this track, according to Jo. We're going to play something with a fair bit of bass for this experiment, and you'll probably recognize it because it's the theme music for this show. It's by 'First Kiss Good Night' out of Melbourne. And the song is called 'Story One'. If you're at home, turn down the lights. 'Cause we're visual creatures, it's best to limit this stimulus so you can focus on the sound and taste in your mouth. Get comfortable and pour the wine.
[00:32:57] [SFX: wine pours].
Annaliese Redlich [00:32:57] I'm going to do it with you. I'm going to swirl the wine and (sniffs), it smells kind of peppery to me. I'm going to have a sip before I stop playing the music just to, um, compare. Okay, now I'm going to play the song.
[00:34:05] [SFX: Story One by First kiss Good Night plays: "All my wine glasses are broken. I guess they didn't make it through the storm. I cracked...]
Annaliese Redlich [00:34:19] I just noticed the wineglass lyric in this song. That was not intentional, by the way. So I'm just having a smell and I feel like I'm getting less, um, pepper on the nose. The red fruit, the berries are coming through more, the sweetness. I'm gonna have a sip. There's a lightness that I can taste in the wine now, whereas before it was, I don't know, it tasted way less complicated. Now, I can get more nuances in the flavor. I sort of kind this stuff hard to describe, but I taste more berries as well. It's less peppery. There's more complexity in the sweetness and in the range of flavors, I think. That initial peppery flavor has deepened, and also the higher, lighter notes are more pronounced and the sweetness as well. It just tastes a lot more complex. Hmm! Before there was just this dominant peppery taste but now it's just way more well rounded. I can taste the lower notes, the, the deeper, kind of heavier, peppery flavors, but also the roundness of sweet berries and the lighter, I don't know, the lighter elements of the wine, it's opened up more. I'm definitely enjoying it more now. Huh! Maybe I will have another glass.
[00:36:09] [SFX: Pours wine].
Annaliese Redlich [00:36:09] What do you notice? Now if this didn't do anything for you or if you don't like Shiraz or you're on a train right now listening to this, do it when you can, alone or with some friends. Take a minute to think about some of your favorite pieces of music. What are the characteristics? High or low voice, instrumental? Is it smooth and rolling or sharp and jarring? What sorts of flavors do these sounds make you think of? Pick a wine that you think might go with that. Jo says that we should be led by our intuition on what goes well together. Some pairings you might want to try, as mentioned by Steve and Jo in this episode are: Prince or Talking Heads and Pinot Noir; Nina Simone and a mineral-y Chardonnay; Scott Walker and a Cab Sav; maybe even Guns N' Roses and a full-bodied Australian Shiraz.
Jo Burzynska [00:36:56] Taste the wine and kind of get your kind of palate around it. What does it taste like? What is it kind of suggesting to you that you feel like you might pick up in some music and let them let that guide you.
Jo Burzynska [00:37:07] It's interesting when these things come together, because I think I've had like people have thought, oh, that's just sounds like a load of old nonsense. It's like she works with wine and she works with sound and she's put together. But when you start talking to people, you find there's so many overlaps, just through conversation, and when you take it further and start doing some research behind that, there's just things which feel good together and that's what kind of crossmodal correspondences are about.
Annaliese Redlich [00:37:34] Whatever the science, whatever the statistics, music connects our vital senses, memories, moods and relationships. Think more about the way it engages with your senses the next time you're tasting or watching something. Think about the way that you connect and enjoy flavors and sound with friends. Think about whatever you want, really, I just hope that you won't think of wine and music in the same way again. I hope that this reminds you to be present, and as Jo says, explore a little more with your senses. It sure has for me, and get in touch with me! I'd love to hear about what you find out. Email me at all ears pod at gmail dot com. And thank-you to Steve Flamsteed of Giant Steps, who, as I record this is in the middle of the epic harvest season. Good luck with that. And Jo Burzynska, check out her website: J-O-B-U-R-Z-Y-N-S-K-A dot com to stay in the loop with her upcoming wine and music events, books and publications. And thanks to Davey Lane, who helped out with the music on this episode. And Beth Atkinson-Quinton for editorial support, and we shall see you next time for another episode of All Ears.
Annaliese Redlich [00:38:48] Just a reminder, if you haven't already, please subscribe to All Ears on your preferred platform. And it makes a world of difference to me and the show, if you can rate it and leave a review on that platform. It's super quick and easy to do this, and it really helps other people find the. Particularly when you're an independent little guy like me. Also, connect with me online via Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at hear all ears. That's H-E-A-R All Ears. I'll be posting extra bits and pieces up there for each episode, mostly visual, it's a really good time. And head to the Broadwave website for full transcriptions of all of our episodes and other shows you can check out.
[00:39:28] Multiple voices [SFX: Broadwave, Broadwave, Broadwave, Broadwave, Broadwave.]